From the Desk of Podcast
Special Episode - Macroeconomics (Group Practice Accelerator Podcast Rebroadcast)

Welcome. You’re listening to the FinTrust Capital Advisors From The Desk Of Podcast: our podcast about markets, life, and things financial. Today’s podcast about macroeconomics features Allen Gillespie, FinTrust’s Chief Investment Officer, with Perrin DesPortes of the Group Practice Accelerator podcast.


Perrin – Intro: Once again, thanks everybody for joining me on the podcast today. This is Perrin DesPortes and I am your host for the Group Practice Accelerator podcast, of course, from Polaris Healthcare Partners. And as I teased in the introduction, I’m joined behind the microphones today by Mr. Allen Gillespie, co-founder of FinTrust Capital Advisors. Allen, thanks so much for joining me on the show today.

Allen: Excited to be here Perrin, thanks. Look forward to participating on The Group Practice Accelerator.

Perrin: You bet. You bet. So, I’ve been looking forward to this for a couple of weeks since we started teeing it up together and just for a little bit of background on Allen and FinTrust for our audience. Allen is the co-founder of FinTrust capital Advisors, just like I mentioned. It’s a wholly owned investment advisory subsidiary of United Community Banks. They have a presence in North and South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, and Florida. Allen is a Chartered Financial Analyst, CFA, and is the Chief Investment Officer at UCB. In addition to that, Allen, and his team at FinTrust worked closely with us at Polaris for a handful of client needs, but also some of our own personal needs in terms of managing our 401(k) and things like that through Polaris. So, we know these guys extremely well, and to say that we trust them is an understatement. The other thing about Allen and his team, candidly, is that they are a resource that we go to, that I look to for historical precedent, trends, prognostications, guidance, and advice. And I feel like Allen is somebody that really connects the history in terms of economic happenings in the United States with where we find ourselves presently and gives nice color to where we might be going in the future. And given everything that’s transpiring in the United States and across the world these days, his is advice and counsel that I seek with alarming regularity, I’ll say. So, Allen, let’s dive right into it. As I mentioned just then, you’re really great with historical context around current events. I feel like everything that happens that I may reach out to you for a little bit of insight on, you always cite some historical reference which makes me feel better like these are not necessarily uncharted waters. Right. So, you’re great with historical context around current events; maybe unpack some of where we find ourselves and do a little bit of a deeper dive for our audience in terms of this macroeconomic outlook, the things that are going on today.

Allen: Sure, yeah. I always like to look to history because there’s an old saying anything that can happen has happened, just maybe not in our lifetimes. So that’s one of the reasons why we sort of look back and you want to see what some similarities are, but then think through some of the difference. So, when thinking about the macro economy, it’s important to separate short term cyclical factors from longer term secular trends. So short term, the market obviously is dealing with increasing interest rates and increasing energy prices, and energy prices and inflation are just an indirect form of taxation and that is currently being used to support the green agenda and a lot of the UN 2030 sort of planning. But historically though, high energy prices, high taxes and high interest rates are a very negative combination for the economy because they take money directly out of consumer pockets. In fact, eleven out of the last twelve recessions were preceded by high energy prices and higher interest rates. If you think back to ’07 – ‘08, oil prices went to 150. Back this summer they hit 123. So obviously that just cuts down consumer spending and that’s about 70% of the economy. But to a degree, some of those effects are short term. Some of the longer-term effects though, that I think are important for your listeners are demographics. Right, and we tend to forget about demographics because they move really slowly. Another big trend that I think is going to be with us for a long time is I call it the deglobalization of supply chains. We sort of realized some of those stresses during COVID hit probably many of your users with PPE equipment. Obviously, all coming out of Asia, people couldn’t get it. But demographic data moves slowly and rarely changes. Same thing with supply chains. Companies don’t necessarily want to remake those if they don’t have to, but obviously those are being remade right now. And right now, the demographics are at a pretty unique inflection point and that’s impacting employment trends and consumer preferences in a big way.

Perrin: Yeah, I think the demographic challenges as we talk about the workforce in its entirety, those that have left and haven’t come back, we’re now hearing about some that left and are unretiring or whatever the word is. And then we see a lot of different changing demographics as it relates to dental schools themselves. For the first time ever in 2021, the incoming school enrollment was over 50% female. That had never happened before. So, a lot of changing winds as it relates to the profession in and of itself. And you mentioned some of the supply chain issues as well, which our clients, the entire industry, they felt directly, you know, and we’re all seeing an increase in terms of our costs of doing business. We’re seeing an increase in terms of everything that we pursue as a consumer, whether it’s eating out in restaurants, or you mentioned oil and the price per barrel and although it’s come back recently, the cost of gasoline, groceries, airfare, on and on and on, right. So, as we kind of turn into this conversation around trends like inflation versus this stagflation word versus recession, can you maybe take apart some of that for our audience? And let’s talk about the difference in those concepts and also what do they mean for a consumer, whether it be consuming goods or health care services itself.

Allen: Yeah, so, to kind of set the stage of what’s driving some of the inflation and stagflation conversation, I do think demographics are a big part of that. Demographically the country looks like a big old you. You’ve got a lot of boomers. Peak year of the baby boom was 1957 when they were about 4.3 million live births in the US. At this point, about 40% of boomers have already retired and obviously this year we have more reaching age 65 and for the next four years. So, a lot of people just reaching older retirement ages. You know, at the same time, your peak spending really comes from your 50-year-olds in the economy, people whose kids are just about to reach college age or just in college. That really coincides with the low point of Generation X, which was 72, 73. So, you know, sort of lacking what I call core spend there. And then we have a lot of Millennials. The peak years for millennials were kind of 89 through 93, so they’re all kind of in their early 30s. So, depending on where business sits related to that and how money enters the economy also drives some of that stagflation and inflation sort of conversation, but kind of jumping over there. I mean, inflation historically is just defined as too much money chasing too few goods, right? It really doesn’t say much about the economy growing or shrinking. And some of what we saw with the pandemic, when a millennial has an incremental dollar, they’re more likely to spend it on goods and services, whereas when a boomer, as they were approaching retirement, had an incremental dollar, they would save it. Right? So, one of the things we’ve seen is money velocity or money in the hands of younger people picks up speed, and that obviously has more inflationary sort of impacts. Other sort of inflationary impacts were, hey, people had to stock up, we had to inventory things, right? So, people went out and bought toilet paper and cars with stimulus checks and things like that. And at the same time, we shut down a lot of production of, say, cars. And so, some of those inflationary effects are, I think, cyclical and will kind of go away. They’re sort of pandemic related. Dentistry saw that as well. It’s called the bull whip effect, where you kind of shut down, you get the rebound, and then it sort of whips back as things normalized. So, there’s some noise in the numbers for sure. Then, you know, stagflation is really the combination of inflation plus employment trends, right? So typically, stagflation is a high inflation environment where basically economic growth is no growth or negative growth. So, you’re really just not moving forward. In some ways, we’re seeing more stagflationary trends because unemployment is pretty low, but inflation is high. During the 70s, there was a new term coin called the misery index, which is basically your unemployment rate plus your inflation rate. So today unemployment is pretty low by historic standards at three and a half. But at 8.5% inflation, that gives you a 12% on misery index. So pretty high. And obviously that impacts consumer decisions.

Perrin: Yeah, I think you mentioned the 70’s and so for the audience, in terms of full disclosure, I am Gen X. I’ll be 52 at the end of this year, and I do not fit Allen’s Categorization of Gen X with kids who are either in college or about to graduate from college. I have an eight-year-old, so I don’t fit anywhere into that bell curve or that distribution, and I’m running against the grain in a lot of ways. That being said, I was born in 1970, and while I didn’t know much of anything for the first years of my life, I do remember the Carter years, the misery index and regulation of the thermostat like turn it up or turn it down and everything and all that kind of jazz. And that really was probably the last time we’ve seen inflation being discussed every hour, based this by every available news outlet, I feel like. And none of us want to return to the years of strong double digit mortgage rates and borrowing rates and things like that. So, you know, when we’re talking about consumer behavior and then, you know, the Fed right. Federal funds rate and everything else, you hear Powell last week and Wyoming and everything. What’s kind of the intermediate term look to things, do you think, just generally speaking, on how we segue out of this?

Allen: Yeah. And to make it more specific, I think for your listeners, back to the healthcare conversation. At the core, inflation, because it’s eroding the value of your cash, people will tend to spend cash very quickly on necessities, right. Because if you just sit around on your cash, it’s losing value. And then they will tend to delay purchases of things that are more discretionary in nature, right. So as that sort of hits home at, say, a dental practice, your core procedures are still going to get done and people might actually spend money more quickly on those types of things, but elective types of things, people would be more inclined to delay because, you know, they have to spend more money on food and gas and items like that. You know, some of the inflation is going to be with us for a while, back to this demographic challenge. Nobody can do anything about it. You lose a lot of people from the workforce. You don’t have enough people coming behind. You can’t replace someone who’s been in the workforce for 40 years or 35 years with someone who is just trained up, right. So, you have to spend more money on training programs. I think a key thing for business owners is to think about how the inflation is impacting both your employees and your customers. Are you reviewing your pricing regularly? How are you pricing your services? In our case, we’ve gone to more than once a year, sort of looking at people’s pay a little bit more frequently because obviously at 8.5% inflation, if that’s not addressed, people might start looking around. So, you want to make sure you’re aware of how the inflation may be impacting your workforce and taking steps to address it, taking a look at your pricing, take a look at your collections to make sure because time really is money in a high inflation environment, time does matter.

Perrin: Yeah, excellent point. And for those in the audience, you can probably read between the lines on Allen’s last commentary there that he much like all of us in the audience, Allen is an entrepreneur at heart. He and a couple of partners built FinTrust Capital Advisors to a level of regional and national prominence. And they recently merged with that larger regional bank, United Community Bank. So successful business builder, successful business operator, and to a degree, a successful exit too. So, kudos to him. But you’re able to kind of see some of his insights that we all share in terms of the trials and tribulations about how to operate a business in today’s overall environment and we all know that it has myriad of challenges. Are there other thoughts or maybe comments for our entrepreneurs in the audience who are building group dental practices at least, and those who are looking to kind of grow their business? You know, it’s one thing to operate. It gives some good guidance on that. But if you put your business owner hat back on for a second and think about, you know, you’re still growing your business within UCB, I mean, our audience is a little bit different because they’re working with banks like UCB to borrow money and usually acquire other practices. Some of them are a de novo bill type of a strategy. But any thoughts there on people who are looking to expand the footprint and really grow through unit expansion?

Allen: Yeah, no, absolutely. Demographics obviously matter. Not only are we seeing it at what I call a big level, we’re also seeing it at sub levels. Zip codes matter. You had over a million people move out of major metro areas to other places. So, zip codes do matter to your business. Obviously, any business runs on its people. So, we always try to align, hey, is it good for our clients, or in a dentist’s case, good for the patients? Are the decisions we’re making good for our staff? Are we building the right culture, keeping, and retaining the talent that we need and do the economics work? I mean, when you’re running a group practice, you need the economics to work. And I think if there’s a shortcoming professional practices bump into at times is many of the participants fail to separate their labor economics of what I get paid to do the work or work in the business versus what am I getting paid to work on the business as an owner and as a provider of capital, and how do I separate those things, right? And some of that can even get into benefits design. I mean, the way a solo practitioner might design benefits might be quite different than the way a group practice designs their benefit programs.

Perrin: Yeah, I think that whole economies of scale argument that you’re touching on there is a really salient point that, you know, in the coming years, the ADA, American Dental Association has written about, spoken about, and presented about the profession of dentistry is kind of top heavy. They’re going to be, for the next two or three years, probably more of an exodus of people selling their practice than there are dental school graduates coming out and people available to buy it. So, it’s going to be still a market of, generally speaking, M and A activity where it’s going to be right for people to expand. I think there’s going to be a lot of opportunity to that effect. And so, for our core clients, the entrepreneurial dentists who are using bank funds to grow the pre private equity group practices, I think the coming years do bode pretty well based around zip codes. Like you mentioned, there are some segments of the country and some states in particular that are seeing significant influx of population migration and some that are a little bit behind the eight ball, so to speak. With that, and I only halfway jokingly say that I feel like a lot of the people from the northeast have already relocated to Charlotte. But it’s not altogether inaccurate either. When we think about those potentially exiting their business. Again, the ADA tends to talk about it from a solo practitioner standpoint. That being said, you know, in 2021, you and I both saw the same thing in terms of global M and A activity and good Lord, it was white hot in the world of dentistry with volume of transactions, multiples paid, aggressive structures in terms of cash, front loaded cash, and a lot of things like that, it was really the perfect storm in a lot of ways. But for those who are looking to potentially exit their business if they built a successful group practice, and maybe they’re looking to take some chips off the table with a financial partner or exit it to a strategic or merge it even with a slightly larger entity, what should they be thinking about? I mean, you just did that with your business, and it was a pretty frothy time. So, any wisdom or insight you want to share with our audience who are thinking about entering the process?

Allen: Yes, absolutely. You know, one good piece of advice I got early on is you have to leave runway for your buyer. Yeah,

Perrin: Yeah, good point

Allen: There are certainly transactions that would generate more cash, but in our case, that would have also led to a gutting of our staff, right? There’s always someone who’s willing to buy your revenue base and typically they’re going to offer the higher multiple. But it was important to us that we had a lot of younger people in our business. So, we wanted to provide continuity and a pathway and opportunity for them to continue to grow. So that kind of led us down the path of looking more for strategic partners that were really giving us a platform opportunity to continue to grow the business. Other owners may be at the point where, hey, maximizing the exit is key, but you have to do that fully with the understanding of what that means for your staffing, potentially. So, there is a very big cultural difference between financial partners merging with strategics, merging with larger firms that I think are important. And I also say transaction structure is important. A lot of people get hung up on the number, but structure in time can help you adjust the numbers a little bit in an accordion type of look. And then the other thing I would say kind of related to that is if you have junior partners or other people like that, is it good for them as well? The best transactions do find that intersection. It truly is good for the patients, it’s good for the people who have to execute on it, and it’s good for the shareholders at the end of the day. And I think it’s good to talk to the different types of partners. It’s not apparent when you start the process, but as you go through the process, it becomes pretty clear.

Perrin: Yeah, that’s great advice. And going back to your structure comment, I think the audience has heard me and Dewalker and a few others who I’ve had on the podcast talk about structure beats price every day. And I think that there are a lot of advantages to working with an advisor to help you think through what the structure is in terms of what it means to you into the future, not just at the point of the liquidity event. I wonder also, Allen, you’ve been a leader at FinTrust. Obviously, being a co-founder, you worn multiple hats as you all went through the process of planning the potential exit. I’m sure you thought long and hard on a personal level too, not just whatever cash you may put in the bank for you and your family type personal level, but from a professional context. You’ve had a pretty remarkable career over a long period of time, and I don’t think you would have entered into any type of process from a mindset of drinking margaritas on a beach for the rest of your life. I know you pretty well. You’re not wired that way. Maybe without disclosing anything of any confidentiality or something that’s too deeply personal here, I think our audience might learn from any insights you might have on the way you approached it personally and what you thought about your professional role that you wanted to craft or what you wanted it to be with whoever the buyer ended up being. And in this case, it was UCB. But like, did you really put a lot of pen to paper, a lot of thought process behind, like what you wanted for Allen Gillespie after all that happened.

Allen: We did, because one of our core values of the firm has always been growth. We always share with our staff that look, we want to be a place where people can grow personally, where they can grow professionally and where they can grow their capital. So obviously the transaction brought in capital. And in our particular case, I had two older owners who continued on with the business. But realistically, their working lives aren’t as long as mine. They’re in their mid-sixties right there on the front end of the baby boom. Born right there in 1957, ‘58. And in my case, I’m turning 50 this year. So, I’m right there at the bottom of Gen X. So, for me, having a place, hey, I have a lot of runway left. I enjoy what I do. How can we do more of it? But the issue we faced as a business was, okay, I have two older partners who they’ve worked hard and deserve a liquidity event at this stage in their career. But if we used all our cash flow to do that, it really didn’t leave us as much room as we needed to continue to facilitate growth and some of the changes in the industry. So, finding a strategic partner that had a lot of potential customers that would generate internal cash flows, that had bigger balance sheet as well, gave really kind of a saw for both of us, for the older partners are a little bit closer to kind of a full-time exit. And then those of us who are sort of mid-career and looking to continue to grow.

Perrin: Yeah, that’s a really great point. And we’ve seen this in a handful of transactions going back, I don’t know, four or five years now where you have multiple owners in a group dental practice. You see this a lot in the specialty world in particular. But all too often there are some that are senior, there’s some that are mid-career, there’s some that are junior and new into the business. And the business is set up that way intentionally, especially from a provider context to allow for transitions of ownership and retirement of founding partners and all that kind of good stuff. When you approach a transaction and we talk about structures and if it’s 80% cash up front and 20% on an equity role and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that doesn’t mean that it has to be 80/20 for every single partner. Usually, the buyer has a wide birth in terms of what they will allow for the business that’s being acquired. So, if you’ve got a couple of senior partners that are soon to be retiring, they may not want to take a lot in equity. They might want more cash because cash is for, at least in most instances, is more of a sure thing whereas those that are younger might say, hey look, I got plenty of runway ahead of me in terms of prime earning years. I’m going to make enough income in the next ten years with performing my god given craft here. But what I really want is the upside of an equity investment. So, they might want more equity and less cash. I don’t want to say fight over it amongst the ownership group, but you can allocate dollars differently between cash and equity based on the individual partners themselves. And it’s kind of cool to think that you all did that as well being a financial services company.

Allen: Yeah, very common for professional services practices. And again, it’s just a matter of getting everybody’s interest on the table and that was one of the things that one of our core values really helped with that is we had a core value of transparency. So, it’s not to say, hey, it’s not all this one for all type of thing, it’s being realistic about the business issues. Let’s get them on the table so that they can be discussed and addressed.

Perrin: Yes, discussed and addressed proactively before you enter the process so that everybody knows there are no hidden agendas and there’s nothing that’s going to be a poison pill in 20 days before closing, right?

Allen: Yeah, we work with a lot of people. We nearly saw a client case, professional services practice go haywire because of a divorce that was happening in the background that the other partners weren’t aware of and obviously splitting of assets kind of came up at the finish line. So, it’s not something we had seen before and knock-on wood, fortunately not anything that came up in our business. But I have seen it happen.

Perrin: Yeah, I mean there are enough things that you would think that should be avoidable at the deal table late, but I’m never surprised when things like that come up, like good grief man. You almost feel like sometimes you need to go through confessional before you start the process but whatever produces the smoothest, cleanest, and most accurate outcome I guess is preferable. So, let’s kind of turn back and put your Chief Investment Officer hat on the Economist in you and let’s talk about the overall outlook for the coming years. Just generally speaking, broad brush type stuff here. What’s the thought process from Allen Gillespie to our audience on that?

Allen: Yeah, I mean broad brush is the millennials are now the largest living generation and that will be true for the rest of our investing lives. So, their consumer preferences are really going to matter. The good news is they’re relatively young, they’re early in their careers and so I think that’s going to give the underlying economy a lot more resilience at the end of the day. Obviously, there’s some policy issues around energy and the like but a lot of this is going to take place at what I call a consumer choice level and people kind of laugh. But the example I give them is you can think through a lot of I call them newer companies versus older companies. I used to laugh about the whole beyond meat was really just a repackaging of hormel and spam, right, for the old World War II generation. And you can kind of go through product-by-product. Inflation, we saw the average size of first-time home shrink last year, right? So how do you deal with inflation? You cut 50 square feet off of a house, right? Things like that. So, you don’t need ATMs and bank branches, you need cell phones and apps, right? So, a lot of this, the winners are going to be those who understand those consumer preferences of those millennials or in dentistry has an outlook for how to serve this mass of boomers. Obviously as your teeth age, a lot more work on that but you don’t have as long to work with that client. But the amount of work they’re going to need is going to go up temporarily, right? So how do you build your business or what’s the focus of your business? And then the other thing is people age, they might be moving off of private insurance to government programs and things like that as well. So, what’s the nature of your clientele? So, the winners are really going to understand their clientele and they’re going to design their products and services in a way that adds value. It’s the same thing that always makes business a winner. At the end of the day, when you provide value to the customer, customers will accept your products and services and you’ll do extremely well.

Perrin: Yeah, I think the healthcare services side of the healthcare profession has really been forced to adopt a lot of that kind of mindset with a vengeance as of late. And I think when you’re talking about the millennials specifically and again the ADA has done some work on this where you talk about the consumerism or consumer mindset in terms of buyer behavior, and we always have talked about consumerism and buyer behavior from a Widget standpoint. But that approach to buyer behavior is 100% applicable to healthcare services and if it’s ease of access like extended day hours before 08:00 a.m. Or hours after 05:00 p.m. Or if it’s being open five and a half, six days a week to include a Saturday or a Sunday or something like that. Where it’s the ability to book online and fill out all the forms electronically so you’re not wasting time in the waiting room or pay your bill online. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it’s a totally different game these days in terms of the way that people approach making health care decisions and engaging with their health care provider than even it was a decade ago. And that’s not just technology driven, that’s really a lot of consumer mindset in terms of buyer behavior. So interesting sort of change in the telehealth piece only probably accelerated that too during the pandemic.

Allen: Yes. And that’s one of the things I think that’s going to be interesting with this millennials. They’ve been willing to sort of congregate in large urban areas downtown. So, I’ve seen some dental practices that have urban settings that are they really got large very quickly, right? But now all of sudden, people are working from home, they’re working remote. Maybe they’re even getting to the ages where they’re actually starting families and some of those traditional behaviors that people didn’t think the millennials would engage in, hey, they’re now engaging in it. So back to group dental, maybe you need both a downtown and one closer to where they might be living or working, right? Because of that shift, right? So, it gets straight to your location strategies as well.

Perrin: Yeah, really interesting. That’s a great point. I hadn’t considered that. Let’s talk or kind of wrap things up maybe with another overarching question, I would say. And we talk about the challenges of being an entrepreneur, of building and operating a business. And it doesn’t matter if it’s consulting and service-oriented business-like Polaris or financial services business like FinTrust, or a bank or a group dental practice or any other. But the businesses that are going to be most secure are going to be those that understand their customer base, they understand their value proposition, they understand what they’re building, and they’re committed to competing and winning in the marketplace in the coming years. Not just playing defense or stagnating. If you kind of give us a big picture overview or some thoughts from your lens on how business owners, be it generally speaking, or group healthcare practice owners, how they can better prepare themselves to compete and win in the marketplace in the coming years. What are your thoughts on that?

Allen: Yeah, obviously you’re going to have to be efficient, right? With cost and inflation sort of moving. So, as we mentioned, compensation practices, right? Maybe you go to more frequent reviews, your pricing strategies. So, you’re just really going to have to have a good command of the details and efficiency and in part the technology enables that as well. It puts a lot more at your fingertips, but you’re going to have to know how to use it and leverage it and get the reports out of your systems. We rolled out for terms and intelligence systems that give us just a lot more color on our customer now. Right now, it’s up to us to kind of put it to work. We have those greater insights and so I think it’s really to have command of that, to really be cost conscious, right? You’ve got to be more efficient. Because I like to give the example, obviously there’s a large online retailer that’s grown very fast, but all of a sudden cash is at a premium. So, they’re having to slow their growth and be more methodical because of the costs that are driving everything below the top line, right? So, a lot of people kind of just focus on that top line. I think more and more focusing on the things below the top line are going to be critical to success going forward.

Perrin: Yeah, I would echo those comments 100%. We used to at Patterson used to have a saying, especially around the time of budgeting, which is that sales cover sends, right? And when you have PNL responsibility or you’re operating your own business and trying to grow it, and you’re just chasing the revenue dollar, as long as you feel like as long as you’re growing revenue, things are okay, and nothing could be further from the truth. And those who can’t manage a cost structure and aren’t connected to their fixed and variable cost basis are going to be the ones that build businesses that if the tide ever recedes and the revenue doesn’t materialize, you’re going to be in a world to hurt. And Patterson drilled into us at a really early stage, a concept called operating leverage that I share with people all the time. And that’s simply the fact that your change in profit grows at a faster rate than your change in sales. And if you can achieve that, you’re going to build a world beater business. And if you can’t, you’re ultimately going to run out of rope at some point. It’s just a matter of when. Allen, this has been a tour de force. I really can’t thank you enough for your time. You’re an extremely busy guy, and to get an hour of your time for today’s podcast is incredibly generous, and we appreciate it. I know our audience is a lot better for it, and again, every time I talk to you, I learn something new as well. I hope this won’t be the last time you’re on our podcast. We’d love to get you back at some point soon, but I can’t thank you enough for your time today, my friend.

Allen: Very much enjoyed it and look forward to being back on the group practice accelerator.

Perrin: You bet, my friend. Always appreciate the time and the guidance.

Perrin – Outro: Well, everyone, I hope you got a lot out of that. Allen shared a tremendous amount, and a lot of it was purely educational. And there are things that we can all learn about building better businesses and being more connected to both our customer base and the numbers. If you got questions about anything that Allen shared today, feel free to drop me an email directly at We will link to Allen’s contact information in his bio in the Show notes. Stick around. We’ll be right back with some additional thoughts. And to wrap up the show.

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